Scoop Election 08: edited by Gordon Campbell

On the capital gains tax debate

July 7th, 2011

Illustration by Tim Denee – capital gains tax
Illustration by Tim Denee – www.timdenee.com

The fact that, at last, one of New Zealand’s major parties has embraced the kind of tax on capital gains common in every other developed country on the planet marks a turning point in the country’s economic history. If they were smart, National’s leadership should embrace the idea as being compatible with a centre-right agenda. Among other things, a capital gains tax could enable income taxes to be lowered, by broadening the base of what is to be counted as taxable income.

Labour’s idea is not exactly revolutionary in any respect. Apparently, Labour will be advocating a capital gains tax set at only 15% – half the top income tax rate. That’s hardly draconian, and such a policy could enable the centre-right to argue for reducing income tax rates overall… but no, the Key government seems to have locked itself into knee jerk rejection mode at this point.

Here’s another centre-right maxim that a capital gains tax fits like a glove : the level playing field. There is a fairness issue involved. Why should income earned by the sweat of one’s brow – via wages, and productive labour – be taxed, while income derived from accumulated capital gain (often via financial or property speculation) is exempted?

As mentioned above, almost every other developed country treats this bizarre distinction that we continue to perpetuate – a ‘yawning gap’ in our tax system as the Australian economics reporter said on RNZ this morning – as intolerable. For decades, New Zealand has suffered the consequences.

Yet it isn’t simply a fairness issue, important though that principle may be. There is also an efficiency argument, even before we get to the revenue gathering aspect. The lack of a capital gains tax has been a vastly inefficient hole in our policy framework in that it allows ( or even encourages) investment money to be sucked into housing speculation and other unproductive activities, and not into the enterprises likely to grow the economy.

In addition, having a capital gains tax would also free the NZ government somewhat from its narrow dependence for its sources of revenue on income tax and on GST – both of which, as we have seen recently, are highly subject to the downswings of the business cycle. Again, National could be embracing a capital gains tax as being entirely compatible with a long term strategy of channeling our scant supply of domestic investment capital into less parasitic forms of activity.

Instead, what we’re getting from the government are the usual scare tactics of fear and ignorance – that this is a tax and spend, grow the government measure etc etc. Laughably, concern is also being expressed that the capital gains tax net will be spread widely beyond housing speculation and into other forms of capital gain.

Excuse me – isn’t that supposed to be the advantage of GST that it is wide ranging and allows for no exemptions? Similarly, the capital gains tax needs to be wide ranging in order to deter tax engineering and avoidance. A buck is a buck is a buck, as the Aussie reporter told RNZ – and the income earned should qualify for its fair share of tax, regardless of the method by which it has been earned.

BTW, taxing capital gains would also take some of the speculative steam out of house prices, long term – and not leave New Zealand vulnerable to the next economic upswing, and the next inevitable speculative housing bubble that will come in its wake. Ditto for farm prices. In essence, Labour is on a potential game changer here, going into the election – especially if, as indicated, it can successfully counterpose the capital gains tax to the government’s policy of state asset sales.

All in all, it is quite a potent argument to put before voters. Do you continue to vote for a programme that (a) consists of income tax cuts that disproportionately benefit the rich (b) exempts their speculative activities from tax almost entirely, while taxing your wages (c) cuts back social services and (d) sells high earning state energy companies to make up the shortfall…? Or do you keep the assets (and reap the dividends and strategic planning benefits involved) and treat the income earned from speculation and capital gain in the same way that you treat the income earned from wages? Who’s the freeloader here, and who is intent on defending the freeloader?

As an aside, the capital gains tax debate has followed exactly the same trajectory as the climate change debate. Back in the 1990s, when the Greens were calling for action on climate change that issue was seen as being marginal, naïve, extremist stuff. It is now mainstream politics here and elsewhere, and the climate change deniers have been consigned to the sidelines.

Four years ago, when the Greens first began to publicly advocate a wide ranging capital gains tax, action along those lines was similarly seen as desirable – for decades, New Zealand’s lack of a capital gains tax has been lamented by economists – but too idealistic, in that the Beltway wisdom had decided it would be politically impossible to implement. Too many powerful forces have stood to lose too much for such a tax to ever be seriously contemplated.

Well, that ground has now shifted – and only partly because of the patent failure of the old neo-liberal prescriptions still being followed by the current government. Labour has picked up the Greens policy position on capital gains and plans to run on it in November as a defining issue.

Finally, we have the potential for an election that can be waged on policy – and not on whether John Key or Phil Goff is the more likeable fellow on television. For an international perspective on capital gains and a darn good primer on the subject, this morning’s RNZ Morning Report interview with Sydney Morning Herald economics correspondent Peter Martin is absolutely essential listening.

*********

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    1. 68 Responses to “On the capital gains tax debate”

    2. By Leon Henderson on Jul 7, 2011 | Reply

      Gordon, you speak in (mock) “wonder” about the maniacally violent reaction of the National Party, Business Roundtable and Corporate Mass-Media to, as you accurately state, the incredibly mild Capital Gains Tax (which always has been Green Policy but the Greens would tax the Bloodsucking landlords much harder!!!) that the Labour Party has proposed (unfortunately, just like their proclamation that they will regulate American Telecom turned to custard with a gigantic backdown viz David Parkers speech in Parliament a couple weeks back saying Labour would not regulate!)
      so are they going to yet again be the slippery,slimy mob that they have always been since 1984? But we have no choice but to vote Labour for the Electorate Vote; Greens or Mana for the Party Vote, and, of course VOTE MMP!!!
      Thank you Gordon for your excellent article.

    3. By Leon Henderson on Jul 7, 2011 | Reply

      The above post is very badly written: what should have been included in it is that because the Labour Party appear to have buckled under the (almost entirely foreign-owned) Mass-Media Hate Onslaught against their tentative “feeler policy” about regulating American Telecom (which John Key the currency fiddler and his foreign and local cronies have handed to on a proverbial “Plate” the new Fibreoptic Broadband Rollout with also a contract “deal” that American Telecom cannot be regulated on both Copper and Fibre for at least ten years by ANY NEW ZEALAND GOVERNMENT)then will the Labour Party climb down the ladder again on the Capital Gains Tax? You better not, Mr Goff!!! VOTE GREEN!!! VOTE MMP!!!

    4. By Daisy on Jul 7, 2011 | Reply

      An excellent article – thanks Gordon.

      I am stunned to hear in the house yesterday how hard it would be to collect this money. This is pathetic, about as pathetic as both Labour and Nationl saying the ‘governments accounts’ could not be held by Kiwibank as it isn’t big enough, it doesn’t have the resources and expertise and other silly reasons. It would be interesting to see the figures on all of this, how much ‘our’ government pays an overseas owned bank for the services it uses. …..

      We must indeed retain MMP which has allowed smaller political parties to promote their ideas and to be taken seriously by the media.

      I was a Labour party supporter until the final time Anderton stood in the eighties for Labour. I voted Values that time and have since voted Aliance and am now a Green party member.

      Labour are indeed slime, I see them at demonstrations in Auckland regularly, they hid for 9 years, during which time they promoted and legislated policies that they themselves would have demonstrated against if National had introduced them.

      They ask for and get speaking slots… I’m not sure I would be so generous.

    5. By Leon Henderson on Jul 7, 2011 | Reply

      Hi Scoop! Thank you for your fabulous Website. Scoop, is there any way that someone who puts a post on your Website can edit the post? I put a post (well, two, actually) to an article by your awesome Journalist Gordon Cambell but posted the second one without a question-mark at the end of a sentence and it will make the post hard to understand, especially for the rapidly increasing masses of illiterate and quasi-literate people in the Free-Market-Capitalist Banana Republic of New Zealand!

    6. By Leon Henderson on Jul 7, 2011 | Reply

      Sincere apologies Gordon for mis-spelling your surname. To tell the truth, have been writing these posts whilst pretty drunk on very tough and rough home-brew! Have difficulty spelling anything correctly when on this Hooch! Gordon, please write an article about the literally insane “influence” that the results of All-Blacks vs so-called “Foreigners” (The All-Blacks are OWNED by Foreigners!!!)rugby matches have on elections in this country: do you think that the ever-increasingly overworked and poverty-stricken “Sheeples” of this nation will start to wake up in time before the November Elections or will the “Circuses Of Rome” thing yet again prevail?

    7. By lyndon on Jul 7, 2011 | Reply

      Leon – question mark inserted, hopefully in the right place.

    8. By leon-ite on Jul 7, 2011 | Reply

      Leon – don’t drink and type, it leads to rambling.

    9. By Joe Blow on Jul 7, 2011 | Reply

      Yes Gordon I am also extremely happy to finally see something with teeth on it coming out of Labour. And Key in particular is looking very weak in his condemnation of such a tax. Witless and reactionary! Still I thought that a capital gains tax only on investment property may sound better because it would encourage investment into other assets like shares as opposed to property, but I guess the Ozzy capital gains tax is on assets such as shares as well so maybe I’m worried about nothing.

      I must admit that coming up with policies such as the four-tier tax system like in Oz and now the capital gains tax also like in Ozzy, does give Labour a strong position, because National is arguing that we should narrow the gap with Ozzy by following policies that the Ozzies are not following, while Labour is now advocating policies that are tried and tested just across the ditch…

      Suddenly Labour is in the running and National isn’t ready for it! Bring on the election!

      Look Leon’s already drunk in celebration! Imagine what he’ll be spieling come November!

    10. By Leon Henderson on Jul 28, 2011 | Reply

      Joe Blow, if The Green Party and Mana can get the Labour Party onto the Treasury Benches by providing the latter with Confidence-And-Supply in November, then I will be getting so drunk with celebration that the National/Act thugs have been ousted, that I will spell “Spiel” “piSel”!!!

    11. By Joe Blow on Jul 28, 2011 | Reply

      @ Leon

      Yes, that would be a very pleasant scenario, although I’d prefer Labour to make amends with the Maori Party and have them form a coalition with the Greens and Mana. Have Labour get back to its roots on indigenous issues. It’s a pitty the polls aren’t pointing to either of those scenarios eventuating… absolutely shocking poll results for Labour. It leaves me with little hope for my fellow New Zealanders. This election is proving to be more about who gets splashed around the Women’s Weekly than on policy… We’re not going to be able to blame this one on the shock doctrine…

    12. By Leon Henderson on Jul 28, 2011 | Reply

      Hell, sorry Lyndon for not having acknowledged your very kindly putting that question-mark into the post (you put it bang on the spot) so a belated Thanks Lyndon. Would also just like to say to Daisy, no surprise your saying you’ve seen Labour Party bigwigs suddenly starting to materialise at Working-Class Rallies: remember in the 1990′s when a bunch of them turned up at a Food Bank (having made sure first of all that plenty of media were there to observe them) clutching cans of food to donate to the Food Bank!!! Good on you Daisy for being a Member of the Mighty, Mighty, Green Party. Cheers!

    13. By Leon Henderson on Jul 28, 2011 | Reply

      Hi Joe Blow, nice to hear from you (you are actually different to what I originally thought, and mean that in a good way); yeah, am very worried about November: the Working-Class masses, blinded by the Rugby World Cup, the foreign-owned (or otherwise so massively foreign-influenced as to make no difference, ie Television New Zealand) Mass-Media with it’s disinformation and mindless trivia … it is very scary. Some chick in another post on Scoop talks about Key being extremely dangerous. She is WAY correct: Key is like an evil Pied Piper who dances along, leading vast hordes of unthinking, ignorant, utterly consumerised “Sheeples” ever and ever closer to the edge of a huge abyss over the edge of which he intends to have them sleepwalk in their droves at the Ballot Box in November. Cheers Joe Blow.

    14. By Joe Blow on Jul 29, 2011 | Reply

      @ Leon

      And while the government keeps getting into more and more debt, the rich keep getting richer and richer:

      http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10741536

    15. By Leon Henderson on Jul 30, 2011 | Reply

      Gooday Joe Blow: Yes indeed the wealthy are raking it in, while everyone else gets poorer and poorer!!! The overwhelming majority of the borrowing of course, is to keep shovelling wads of Tax-Cut Lolly into the copious pockets of those self-same Fat-Cats, and make up for the nearly two-billion dollars that Key, Joyce, and English poured down the throats of that gang of “entrepreneurs” who all of a sudden jumped onto the South-Canterbury Shonk-Train in 2008 after a “close business associate” of Mr. Key inveigled “Magoo” Hubbard to accept a protege (gofer) as CEO of South Canterbury Finance. This little band of ratbag “entrepreneurs” are the ones who got the 1.07 billion dollar “bailout” – they carved it up between them. One of them was a notorious racketeer from the 1990′s, who, like all the others, would declare themselves “bankrupt” whenever their creditors (usually builders, sparkies, plumbers, etc from the “Real Estate Developments” that these “entrepreneurs” were and are so fond of, such as shoe-box apartment complexes, etc) wanted to be paid, and this Fascist was yet again “bankrupt” in 2008… but this was no hindrance to his as if by magic producing three-and-a-half million dollars to shove into South Canterbury Finance!!! By God he cleaned up handsomely when the nearly two-billion came raining down upon him and his cronies because not only did he get his 3.05M principal back, but he also got three years interest at nine-percent per annum!!! Not bad eh? Just goes to show what can be done in The Free-Market Capitalist Banana Republic of New Zealand when you are a greedy pig and you’ve got no ethical principles, – the sky is literally the limit!!! Oh and by the way, up until English “suddenly discovered” that there was “a spare two-billion lying around” for his, Key, and Joyces “entrepreneurial” chums, English had, from the moment the Nazi Party (oops, National Party… er hang on, yeah actually it IS the Nazi Party)got onto the Treasury Benches in 2008 been ranting “THERE IS NO MONEY” and English refused to put anything into the NZ Superannuation Fund (not a CENT has gone into it since those criminals became the government)whilst simultaneously ramming through the House under Urgency, massive tax-cuts for the wealthy!!! ACC wrecked (CAN’T AFFORD IT – NO MONEY!!!) Public Service decimated (CAN’T AFFORD THESE DRONES – NO MONEY!!!); what few remaining “rights” workers had left viciously stripped from them (IT WILL INCREASE PRODUCTIVITY AND EMPLOYMENT!!!)and the sinister “Welfare Working Group” with the loathesome Paula Rebstock at the helm (Rebstock is a foreign version of Bagley – that monster who Smith and Carter made the boss of the Junta that they put in place of the South Canterbury Regional Council who the Nazi Party summarily sacked)whose “Report” had already been pre-written by the Business Roundtable!!! That rotten troll Jennifer Shipley also is in the Public Purse Trough so far that all you can see is Shipley’s fat arse sticking out of it!!! Meanwhile, William “NO MONEY” English gives the wealthy yet another massive tax cut and whacks the Proles with 15% GST and the Emissions Trading Tax that, of course, only the Proles are getting whacked for!!!

      Cheers, Joe Blow.

      Am trying to research that South Canterbury Fraud on the Web but the information I want is like looking for rocking-horse shit. But found this on the way:

      http://tumeke.blogspot.com/2011/06/mr-magoo-and-mythical-south-island-s

    16. By Leon Henderson on Jul 31, 2011 | Reply

      Joe Blow: have you been to the “stuff.co” website? It is truly hideous and crawling with Fascists and Dumb-Arsed-Dimwits. It is in desperate need of a real agitator but to agitate,if you are a Left-Winger, you have somehow got to get past their Censorship/Screening process and I seem to lack the necessary amount of subtlety to be able to do this. Joe Blow, preaching to the converted is not going to get us Victory in November: we have got to somehow get our Message into the Enemy territory and believe me, stuff.co is a venomous Enemy!!!

    17. By Leon Henderson on Jul 31, 2011 | Reply

      An hystrionic Anti-Green Party crusade has erupted all over “stuff.co” where Fascists are ranting that The Mighty Green Party are “watermelons” = “green on the outside, Red on the inside” COMMUNISTS!!!! EEEEEK!!!!! COMMIES!!!! EEEEEEKKK!!!!!! BOLSHEVIK LENINIST COMMUNISTIC COMMIES!!!! EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEKKK!!!!!!

    18. By Joe Blow on Jul 31, 2011 | Reply

      @ Leon

      Hi Leon. I think you’ve been drinking again. I hope you get this when you’re sober…

      I’m wondering if you’ve ever heard of a guy called Charles Edward Coughlin:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Father_Coughlin

      Not to mention Henry Ford, the father of mass production and consumerism, but we’ll leave that to another time.

      If you think about it, Coughlin’s got a lot in common with prominent far-right paleo-cons like Alex Jones and Ron Paul. Hell Jones is also a radio host except he’s gone global on the internet. Funny how Roosevelt was dealing with the aftermath of the Great Depression much like Obama is with the financial crisis. There are a lot of parallels there… I’m afraid that it appears to be the same old song with just a slightly different tune…

    19. By Joe Blow on Jul 31, 2011 | Reply

      @ Leon

      No, I’ve never visited stuff.co. I have heard of a thing called Kiwiblog though, but I’ve read a few articles by David Farrar in the Herald and that was enough for me…

      I thought the Greens were looking very middle of the road these days. Russell Norman managed to sound like an economist on TV the other day. They are sounding less and less like communists these days…

    20. By Leon Henderson on Jul 31, 2011 | Reply

      Hey Joe Blow: knocked up a (long) reply to your posts but Scoop has sequestered it (it has got a couple of URL’s in it and I think that Scoop likes to check out the URL’s in posts before deciding on whether to let the posts get placed or not. So far, every time that I have banged up a text-only post with no URL’s it has been immediately “appeared” on the website)so hopefully it will “surface” here in the bye-and-bye; put a fair bit of work into it and it aint bad by my standards!!! You were correct about the plonk, but Joe Blow, I am not a monk (well I would probably make a pretty good Russian monk!!!) but yeah, had just cranked out a new batch of hooch – it is a wonderful painkiller!!!

      You really ought to suss out the “stuff.co” website: it is BIG Joe Blow, and has vast hordes of Proles (many of them appear to be obsessed with the Nazi’s in a hero-worshipping manner) writing things on it: all you have to do is go there to have a gander Joe Blow, and you will very rapidly see why it is so important that anti-Fascists who are literate try and post counterattacks on that website: Joe Blow, I very much doubt if you ever listen to “talkback radio” but what I do know is that you will know that all political parties and myriad other groups keep a VERY close watch on the “talkback radio traffic” because what you overwhelmingly get there is what Muldoon gloatingly termed “The Ordinary Bloke”. In fact, in the early 1980′s when Muldoon felt himself to be absolutely invulnerable he could not resist making an underhanded attack on his massive, dim-witted, Sheep-like, “Ordinary Bloke” constituency when he gloated: “Unlike most people I don’t read the headlines… I read the articles, Heh Heh Heh!!!”.

      Joe Blow, you surely are aware that these Proles who Muldoon held in such utter contempt are the infamous “swing-voters” of this country. Even with MMP it is these utterly irresponsible dickheads who largely determine the results of elections. Joe Blow, do you know that these vermin comprise an estimated thirty-seven-percent of the Registered Electorate? Furthermore Joe Blow, do you know that that these ruiners of conscious democracy mostly have never even thought about who they are going to vote for until they are literally in the polling booth with the pen in their hand and the voting paper in front of them. The MASSIVE problem Joe Blow, is that these people VOTE!!! A thinker once told me that it would probably be a good idea to have a “Test Of Fitness To Vote” and those found sufficiently rational by such a test would be allowed to vote in Elections, and the “Rationality Test” would be designed to ensure that the would-be voter had devoted a sufficient amount of brainpower to the study of politics to be able to demonstrate that they actually had at least some kind of idea of where their political orientation was.

      Joe Blow, it is on “talkback radio” and “NZ news forums” like “stuff.co” where almost everywhere you see the imbeciles who in November could very well hurl this country and every “Sheeple” in it, into The Third-World-Mortuary.

      Did you know Joe Blow that when Roger Douglas’ so-called “Labour” Party (Roger Douglas Fascist Party) got into power in 1984 New Zealand was one of the most egalitarian countries in the world, and was rated fifth highest in the world on the OECD Standard Of Living List after the Scandanavian Social Democracies and the Finnish Social Democracy. Within one year of the Roger Douglas Fascist Party getting inrto power and unleashing their Jewish-American-Free-Market-Capitalist-Onslaught,this country began to slide downwards on the Standard-Of Living/Wealth Distribution/Wages, and home-ownership statistics. This “slide” has never stopped – it has been relentlessly continuing to the point where New Zealand is now bordering on the verge of falling off the OECD rankings altogether because New Zealand is now Number 32 (yes: Thirty-Two) on the OECD Standard Of Living/Wealth Distribution(etc) rankings. In other words a toss-up between New Zealand and Greece!!!

      The incredible miracles that Jewish-American Free-Market capitalism has performed here in 25 years!!! It includes the lowest level of Working-Class home-ownership since records began to be officially kept on such things in this country. I can never forget when John Key tried to counter these facts by slimily proclaiming to a grovelling, worshipful Media: “It deeply concerns me that New Zealanders are in danger of becoming tenants in their own country”.

      DIE TEN THOUSAND AGONISING DEATHS AND THEN TEN THOUSAND MORE MORE MR. DUPLICITOUS CURRENCY SPECULATOR.

    21. By Leon Henderson on Jul 31, 2011 | Reply

      Hi Scoop Moderator: could you PLEASE remove the second “MORE” (all caps) at the end of my latest post? Thank you for publishing the post Scoop, but am not a very good writer and you dudes at Scoop are very generously letting me try to get better at writing stuff – a kind of training-ground, and a damn good one actually. Thanks Scoop!!!

    22. By Joe Blow on Jul 31, 2011 | Reply

      @ Leon

      Hello sober Leon! You write better sober!

      Na, Scoop only likes to check out the dodgy URLs you like to post Leon… you’re being monitored!

      Yes, I know a bit about the 1984 Labour government. Still that lovely place above the other OECD members we once held was only due to us being propped up by the slimmest of margins through government loans. Public debt had reached close to 50% of GDP by the time Labour got into government in 1984. This was largely debt accumulated through government propping up the farming sector through subsidies after it had lost its guaranteed market to Britain due to Britain joining the EEC, not to mention Keynesianism (money printing) and Think Big.

      However, I know what you mean about old Roger the Codger. That debt crisis hardly justified our country needing to go on a rampage from one extreme to the opposite end of the spectrum. I blame this largely on New Zealand’s incessant fixation with ideology. It’s like, because we can only lead internationally by example, we have this fixation with turning our country into the perfect model straight from the textbook and in the process unwittingly turn ourselves into the world’s number one guinea pig. Maybe it makes us feel important or something…

      In any case, the last 25 years of what you call “Jewish-American Freemarket capitalism”, and I call neo-liberal ideology, has made itself most harmful through an unquestioning advocacy for complete deregulation. Not a middle ground, but the absolutely opposite extreme. If it’s free, it’s good… I see this as the root cause of the financial crisis, the finance company collapses and fraud, leaky homes, and the pike river disaster. Ireland is a nice example of a country we are lucky not to be…

      This doesn’t mean that I think we should go back to the other extreme, but obviously no oversight and no regulation has proved itself to be a fool’s paradise.

      I’m not interested in stuff.co. It sounds like your kind of place though Leon. If you love it so much, why don’t you go back there? Suff.co needs you!

    23. By Leon Henderson on Aug 1, 2011 | Reply

      Oh CRAP – another bloody “Middle-Of-The-Roader” like Peter goddamn Dunne!!!!

    24. By Leon Henderson on Aug 1, 2011 | Reply

      Joe Blow, you should take it a bit more easy on the turps: that putrid website I was talking about is called STUFF, not SUFF!!! I will now leave you in peace to continue reading your New Zealand First policy brochures!!!

    25. By Leon Henderson on Aug 1, 2011 | Reply

      Don’t get me started on the f%&*ing farmers Joe Blow: very close to where I live there is a farmer with vast “Estate” – all of which is State-Owned-Land that his grandfather managed to get for FREE from the NZ Government (like nearly all the rest of them). In 2008 it was discovered that he had been subdividing and selling the land!!! That land is YOUR land Joe Blow (but try putting a tent on it or even trying to walk through a part it to get somewhere!!! You will have the police turn up in the blink of an eye or else the “farmer” -meaning the manager- himself turning up with a gun in his shithole rusty, falling apart LandRover!!!) but this “Hungry” capitalist was selling it without your permission!!! And when this greedy skunk got found out, what did the devious ratbag have to say? Well this duplicitous scumbag had this to say: “This land has been in my family since my Grandad got it, and so it’s ours and we can do what we like with it”.

      As said, Joe Blow, do NOT get me started on the “farmers”!!!

    26. By Leon Henderson on Aug 1, 2011 | Reply

      Oh, and just in case you were wondering what happened to that so-called “farmer” (you already know what “happened” to him Joe Blow) – am writing this primarily for anyone reading this page who is not familiar with New Zealand so-called “farmers” (most of them are fat bastards in suits and ties with sixteen-million-dollar mansions along the seafront of Tauranga: four car garage, swimming pool, tennis courts, blah blah, and a Gin Palace in the Bay, and the aforesaid Fat Bastards NEVER get their Lamborghini’s and custom-made Italian shoes anywhere near a dirty, stinky, animal-crap-covered farm!!!!) …

      Yes but what happened to this “Farmer-Entrepreneur” who was selling YOUR land for enormous amounts of money Joe Blow???

      As already has been said, you already know the answer Joe Blow: NOTHING happened to him as a consequence of his outrageous thieving – NOTHING at all.

    27. By Leon Henderson on Aug 1, 2011 | Reply

      Scoop are not yet putting my attempted post from last night on the website but do not know why: the URL’s were solely to do with Henry Ford the Fascist and how he had his factory’s patrolled by gangs of thugs who beat the shit out of any workers who looked like they were talking to each other or slacking-off (Ford was a rabid Fascist and violently anti-Trade-Union); that priest you put the URL for was trying to be a Bolshevik but without Bolshevik Atheism. The sole reason the Russian Bolsheviks adopted Atheism as their “Spiritual Slant” is because it was imperative that The Revolution included the old Russian Empire in Asia (for obvious Geostrategic reasons: the Russians, not even the Czarist Russians were invaders of other countries to thieve, pillage, and loot them and use their people as virtual slaves like the Pommies and Americans have always done, and continue to do: the Russians GIVE and do not exploit) and the Bolsheviks could not appear in the mostly Islamic countries of the old Russian Empire in Asia as Christians trying to re-take the Empire.

      Never underestimate the Russians, Joe Blow.

    28. By Leon Henderson on Aug 1, 2011 | Reply

      Joe Blow, you cite Ireland. Well did you know that the reason Douglas was “missing” from New Zealand after 1987 (when he handed the Jews in Wall Street the New Zealand Telecommunications Network (“Telecom”)and the New Zealand currency (Douglas “floated” the NZ dollar and made it a plaything of the Wall Street Jews and their fellow-travellers such as… no!!! John Key)was because he was in Russia as one of the World Bank/IMF/WTO mob who Gorbachev surrounded himself with. Even the Russian Finance Minister was excluded from this viciously evil cabal which was to unleash upon the Russian people a maelstrom of Jewish butchery so extreme, that millions of Russians literally died.

      In 2007 Roger Douglas was strutting around bragging that (on behalf of the World Bank/IMF) he had “Successfully Performed An Economic Miracle In Latvia Via Implementation Of A Fifteen Percent Flat-Tax”.

      Joe Blow, a fifteen percent Flat-Tax has always been the Randist “Holy Grail” of Roger Douglas and his fellow thieves, bandits, hijackers, and extortionists.

      In 2008 the Latvian economy collapsed through it’s arsehole: all of the (capitalist) banks were stuffed full of worthless Debt-Bundles from Goldman Sachs.

      What else is new, Joe Blow.

    29. By Leon Henderson on Aug 1, 2011 | Reply

      That Smoke-And-Mirrors SHAM re the so-called “Debt Ceiling Crises” in the USA has been “Miraculously Solved At The Last Minute” (National Radio report only a few seconds ago)Surprise Surprise. Gosh, who would have expected that to happen?!!! National Radio felt that it was necessary to contact John Key for his views on it all!!!

    30. By Joe Blow on Aug 1, 2011 | Reply

      @ Leon

      Yes, I guess from where you’re standing I’m definitely a “middle of the roader”. A terrible pragmatist. Though I would like to think that I am to the left of the likes of Dunne. I have a better hair do than he does at least…

      Yes, I know that the “farmers” that survived the rural downturn (loss of subsidies) are now fatcats who have managers running their farms. Many of them are huge companies like Dairy Holdings Ltd.

      As for your piece on Heny Ford it looks like it has been gobbled by the moderator. I have one thing to add about Henry Ford. He was a Jew hater. In the 1920s he sponsored a newspaper called the Dearborn Independent, which published “The International Jew: The World’s Foremost Problem” and “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion”, a fraudulent anti-semitic text purporting to describe the Jewish plan for achieving world domination. Hitler and the Nazis were major proponents of the texts. The Protocols were used as a textbook in German schools after the Nazi’s came to power in 1933. In February 1921, the New York World published an interview with Ford. In this interview Ford said: “The only statement I care to make about the Protocols is that they fit in with what is going on.” Hitler reportedly revered Ford, proclaiming that “I shall do my best to put his theories into practice in Germany”. He also modeled the Volkswagen on the model T. In July 1938, before the outbreak of WWII, the German consul gave Ford the award of the Grand Cross of the German Eagle, the highest medal Nazi Germany could bestow on a foreigner. Extremist groups and conspiracy theorists often recycle the material.

    31. By Leon Henderson on Aug 1, 2011 | Reply

      Hullo Joe Blow: am trying to figure out why Scoop has not placed that post that was written last night: there was not any swearing or libellous material in it, and it was damn hard work too!!! It’s absence has created contextual hiatus in our conversation. Aint too worried but am still pissed off!!!

    32. By Leon Henderson on Aug 1, 2011 | Reply

      It is a massive reief to know you have got a better hairdo than Peter Dunne, Joe Blow!!!

    33. By Leon Henderson on Aug 1, 2011 | Reply

      That is to say “massive relief” Joe Blow, correct spelling viz-a-viz haircut etc (Dunne looks like he is a a victim of the USA-backed mass-murderer Augusto Pinochet whose interrogators clamped high-voltage cables onto the testicles of the thousands of people (in this case males of course, but vast numbers of females were arrested, tortured and murdered also) the police dragged away to the Interrogation Cells. Dunnes “haircut” looks like he has had electrodes stuck on his balls by the thugs of the American-backed Pinochet Regime and then got forty-thousand volts shunted into his balls!!!

    34. By Leon Henderson on Aug 1, 2011 | Reply

      I called Peter Dunne a “male” but realise this is an extremely disputable issue: am not a biologist and so am unable to say that there is such a thing as “male” and “female”, when what is being talked about is a political Syphilis Germ.

    35. By Leon Henderson on Aug 1, 2011 | Reply

      Some “tobacco” for your “pipe” Joe Blow:

      http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=25829

    36. By Joe Blow on Aug 1, 2011 | Reply

      @ Leon

      Yeah, yeah, the LIFG will likely become an embarrassment for the West’s humanitarian intervention in Libya one day… just like the KLA and Hashim Thaci have in Kosovo. There are no goodies and baddies in the real world Leon. Just lesser evils… That doesn’t mean I don’t think that the KLA and Thaci shouldn’t be brought to justice just like Mladic and Karadzic though…

      It’s early days yet. The ICC only came into existence in 2003. We have a long way to go yet. Leon I think you would like a book called Madam Prosecutor by Carla Del Ponte about herself. I recommend it to you.

      Still the LIFG hardly “officially joined” Al-qaeda on 3 November 2007. It was more like Al-qaeda (Ayman al-Zawahiri and Abu Laith al-Libi) claimed that the LIFG had joined them. Do you believe everything you read from the BBC?

      http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7076604.stm

    37. By Leon Henderson on Aug 1, 2011 | Reply

      Joe Blow: will be very nice to you and tell you about what probably is the most awesomely astounding “Sea Book” ever written in the english language (I love the Sea, Joe Blow)and which should be compulsory reading in the so-called “educational” curriculum:

      “Adrift” by Steven Callahan.

      He is an American , Joe Blow, and another thing also: the sister of my Foster-Mother married, in either 1967 or 1968 a very nice dude who was a Vietnam War Veteran. A very simple, honest, hard-working man who was honest enough to say “we were wrong and the Vietnamese peasant-warriors totally defeated us”.

      I do not hate the American Working-Class people Joe Blow.

      Get the book – guarantee you will not regret it.

    38. By Leon Henderson on Aug 2, 2011 | Reply

      Joe Blow, I do not believe a single word from the BBC: they portrayed President Milosovic (an incredibly brave man, and a staunch Serbian Patriot)as being an “Evil Devil With Horns And A Pitchfork” and the brave Serbian warriors as being his “Evil Demons”. Do you not think, Joe Blow, that it is “interesting” how the Americans and the Pommies backed the Albanian/Kosovan/Bosnian Islamists against the (Russian) Orthodox Christian Serbians?

    39. By Joe Blow on Aug 2, 2011 | Reply

      I guess it would only be “interesting” for some people who think the NATO interventions were all about religion. I don’t believe that the NATO intervention in Bosnia and Kosovo had anything to do with religion. True NATO backed the Albanians in Kosovo who are largely muslim. However, in Bosnia NATO backed the largely muslim Bosniaks and the Catholic Bosnian Croats…

      I think it is interesting how the BBC portrayed Abu Laith al-Libi as a leader of the LIFG when he was an Al-qaeda leader in Afghanistan. It’s the same old “reds under the bed”, gone “Al-qaeda cells are every where” paranoia that your author, Peter Dale Scott, seems to have fallen for hook, line and sinker…

      So what if some of the Libyan fighters from the Mujahdeen returned to Libya to form the LIFG? Gaddafi is a sunni muslim and so is Karzai for that matter. Once again it does not appear to be about religion…

    40. By Joe Blow on Aug 2, 2011 | Reply

      @ Leon

      To make the point clear: Karzai helped transfer guns and money to the Mujahideen during the Soviet occupation and most of the Northern Alliance are ex-mujahideen. If your author’s, Peter Dale Scott’s, interpretation of who Al-qaeda is today was taken seriously, Karzai and the Northern Alliance would also be Al-qaeda cells!

    41. By Joe Blow on Aug 3, 2011 | Reply

      @ Leon

      This is “interesting”. In your author’s, Peter Dale Scott’s, article he writes the following:

      “A major reason for the Serb attack on Srebrenica was to deal with the armed attacks mounted from that base on nearby villages: “intelligence sources said it was that harassment which precipitated the Serb attack on the 1,500 Muslim defenders inside the enclave.”27″

      In footnote 27 Scott quotes Michael Evans, “Muslim soldiers ‘failed to defend town from Serbs,’” Times (London), July 14, 1995. However if you look at the original quote in Evan’s article it reads as follows:

      “……Srebrenica was officially demilitarized on April 17, 1993, but the government soldiers were not short of weapons. Before the Serb advance on the town, the Muslims had been shelling Serb units along the main road to the south. The intelligence sources said it was that harassment which precipitated the Serb attack on the 1,500 Muslim defenders inside the enclave….”

      Now that doesn’t sound like attacks on “nearby villages”. That sounds more like attacks on “Serb units along the main road to the south”.

      You’re right! This article is very “interesting”.

    42. By Leon Henderson on Aug 3, 2011 | Reply

      For God’s sake, Joe Blow, Karzai and his Zionist-backed drug-running thugs ARE Al-Qaida!!! You have got a lot to learn about Asiatic politics!!!

    43. By Leon Henderson on Aug 4, 2011 | Reply

      Joe Blow, I was exaggerating a LEETLE bit to say that Karzai is Al-Qaida, but only a tiny little bit!!! Did you know that Karzai is a Pashtun? That is why he and The Taleban got on so well in the 1990′s where Karzai was the giant American oil and gas pipeline construction consortium Unocal’s go-between negotiator about the pipelines through Afghanistan. The politics of that region, Central Asia, and the Middle East are insanely complex, and few political figures seem to be who they seem to be!!!

      http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2010/06/afghan_president_mee.php

      http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/06/18/us-afghanistan-talks-idUSTRE75

      Here is some stuff about the propaganda Hatchet-Job against Serbia:

      http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=2765

      http://tv.globalresearch.ca/2011/06/bosnia-exposing-media-disinformation-and

      http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=731

    44. By Leon Henderson on Aug 4, 2011 | Reply

      Joe Blow, about twenty minutes ago I tried to place another post, which not only included a modification to the statement about Karzai, but was also to do with Central Asian/Middle-Eastern politics (complex!!!) and The Balkans; the would-be-post contained a number of URL’s and has been “gobbled” by Scoop!!! Am still trying to figure out why that one with the stuff about Henry Ford has been apparantly “banned”. Whether the latest one will or won’t be, who knows?

      You mentioned The Green Party’s Co-Leader Russell Norman earlier: he, amongst other “Policy Hats” that he is The Green Party “rep” for, is also their Finance Spokesman, and a very, very, good one: the corporate mass-media are always trying to misrepresent The Green Party, and a major “disinformation angle” of the media’s is to portray The Green Party as being so-called “weak” on financial/economic verisimilitude.

      Nothing could be further from the truth. The Green Party are a very, very, intelligent “family” and Russell Norman has such a profound knowledge of economics that he alarms the National/Act party (as well as the Press Gallery) with his patient, eminently logical speeches on Green Party Economic Policy in Parliament. The Labour party, to try and get Electoral traction, recently stole the Green Party’s Capital Gains Tax Policy and then regurgitated it in a massively weakened form, and also are now going around saying they will, if they get on the Treasury Benches in November, immediately implement the Green Party $15.00 per hour Minimum Wage.

      Check out their excellent Website:

      http://www.greens.org.nz/contact

      Join them! It is only $15.00 to become a Card-Holding Green Party Member.

    45. By Leon Henderson on Aug 4, 2011 | Reply

      A news website I started going to expecting that there would be either NZ Swing-Voters or downright Fascists (same thing really, viz the moronic Brownshirts who “helped” copiously to put the Nazi’s into power, and who were then very rapidly exterminated by the Himmler SS in their tens-of-thousands in “The Night Of The Long Knives” … but even if these facts were repeatedly told to the criminally dim-witted “Swing-Voters” of this country they would still completely miss the point: and they are allowed to VOTE Joe Blow!!!) crawling all over it, and there ARE plenty of them!!! But tell you what, Joe Blow, I went there thinking that John Armstrong (the NZ Herald Chief Editor/Political Editor) was a combination of Hitler, Himmler, and John Key, and never expected him to even contemplate “placing” any “post” I tried to write there, and so from the outset I was extremely belligerent towards him personally, and hurled some pretty hefty barrages of insults at him, and am pretty good at articulating insults!!!

      But astonishingly, he has published almost everything, and this has enforced massively a BIG re-think about John Armstrong: this is a guy who seems to be able to actually think!!! And you can take the piss Joe Blow by scrawling such ridiculous inaccuracies as: “Publishing what you wrote is no proof of being able to think” but you can go ahead and malign John Armstrong as much as you like, Joe Blow!!!

      Meanwhile Joe Blow there is on the NZ Herald website a truly magnificent article on how John Key and his gang of Ratbags hijacked the Fibreoptic Broadband Network and handed it to those thieving Wall-Street Criminal Foreign Bloodsuckers American Telecom: oh, PLEEZ Joe Blow do not let yourself be suckered by the Capitalist Smoke-And-Mirrors BULLSHIT viz-a-viz the so-called “separation” of American Telecom into “different competitive entities”. Yeah Right Joe Blow, just like their old Siamese Twin Vodafone who (GOSH!!! WHO COULD BELIEVE IT!!!) are fullbore-in on the astronomical swindle that John Key, Steven Joyce, and William English have perpetrated upon the Rugby and Womans-Weekly obsessed New Zealand Sheeples. In other words Joe Blow, Vodafone are the co-contractors that you and nearly every other New Zealander are going to be giving nearly two billion dollars to from your tax money. But that is not all Joe Blow: John Key, Steven Joyce, and William English have signed into the contract that no price/fee’s regulation of the charges of American Telecom/Vodafone to the New Zealand public can be even examined for the next TEN YEARS.

      Am unable to get the NZ Herald URL for the article to operate, so to see it google “NZ Herald > Technology > Internet > Chris Barton Telecom’s New Monopoly.

      You better read real close what this guy is writing and take it to the Polling Booth in November and vote either Green Party or Mana as the Party Vote and either Labour or Mana as your Electorate Vote – which one depending on how you are are registered to vote. It goes without saying Joe Blow that you you are going to select “MMP” as your “Preferred Electoral System”.

      And the Broadband System: the Wall Street Jews (“Telecom/Vodafone/Chorus”)will gloatingly pocket you and your fellow New Zealander’s nearly two-billion dollar DONATION and then they will HAMMER you and all the rest of the Internet-connected Working-Class people of New Zealand with such an insanely vicious maelstrom of extortionate money-gouging, that it is going to make all of the unrelenting swindling that these economic Terrorists have been doing in this country since 1987 look like overwhelming egalitarian generosity in comparison!!!

    46. By Joe Blow on Aug 4, 2011 | Reply

      Karzai

      Yes, I know he’s Pashtun. That’s why he has been the frontrunner in every election. Last election his only competition, Abdulah Abdulah, didn’t stand a chance even with a run off as he is father was Tajik (his mother was Pashtun)and he’s awfully quiet about whether he is Sunni Muslim or not which makes me suspect he’s a Shi’ite. I guess if Karzai is really al-Qaeda then he can’t be criticised for not representing the true views of the people of Afghanistan. Hell he’s Taliban too!

      Greens

      What make you think I don’t vote Green already? I care very much about the environment. I have given the Greens the party vote every election of my voting life until last election when I voted Labour because I didn’t want National to get in power. I may vote Labour again because I don’t want National to remain in power, especially now that they have taken on the capital gains tax policy and seem to be softening towards the Maori Party. I was considering voting Maori Party to keep National centre but their seats are all based on the Maori constituencies anyway so a party vote would be wasted on them…

      The Greens have taken on a different angle with their image on economic issues however. It is shaping up to be a very different party. In reality they’ve realised they aren’t going to influence policy unless they get sensible on economics. Following the German Greens model. Sounds like a good idea…

      Telecom

      You would think that National would have learnt that it is extremely difficult to create sufficient competition with industries dependent on networks unless the government owns those networks. Telecom is the perfect example of this fallacy and the power companies are another good example as well.

      Have you heard about the National plan to have Kiwisaver investors invest in the privatisation of the power companies? I just about fell off my seat because it does not sound anything like a National Party policy. It will depend on the detail and how many shares will be sold to Kiwisaver, but I suspect that it shows that National is a bit more worried about the threat of the Labour/Greens capital gains tax policy this election than the polls would suggest, which is very pleasing (06:40 am):

      http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport

    47. By Joe Blow on Aug 4, 2011 | Reply

      Bantering on the Left

      Check out this exchange between the interventionists on the left, Christopher Hitchens, Oliver Kamm and Professor Jeffrey Isaac and the non-interventionist Noam Chompsky when you have time. It surrounds the issues of Kosovo, Bosnia, Afghanistan and Iraq but it is still pertinent to today’s issues surrounding the intervention in Libya:

      Of Sin, the Left & Islamic Fascism – Chrisropher Hitchens

      http://www.thenation.com/article/sin-left-islamic-fascism

      Blaming bin Laden First – Christopher Hitchens

      http://www.thenation.com/article/blaming-bin-laden-first

      Reply to Hitchens – Noam Chompsky

      http://www.thenation.com/article/reply-hitchens

      A Rejoinder to Noam Chompsky – Christopher Hitchens

      http://www.thenation.com/article/rejoinder-noam-chomsky

      Reply to Hitchens’s Rejoiner – Noam Chompsky

      http://www.thenation.com/article/reply-hitchenss-rejoinder

      Here is similar bantering between Oliver Kamm and Noam:

      Against Chompsky – Oliver Kamm (scroll down to second article)

      http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/2005/11/forandagainstchomsky/

      We are All Complicit – Noam Chompsky

      http://www.chomsky.info/articles/200601–.htm

      Kamm Replies to Chompsky – Oliver Kamm (scroll down 6th letter)

      http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/2006/02/7302-letters/

      More banter between Professor Jeffrey Isaac and Noam:

      Thus Spake Noam – Prof. Jeffrey Isaac

      http://www.hamline.edu/apakabar/basisdata/2001/11/19/0041.html

      A Response – Noam Chompsky

      http://prospect.org/cs/articles?article=a_response

      A Counter Response – Prof. Jeffrey Isaac

      http://www.mail-archive.com/stop-nsp@topica.com/msg02424.html

      BBC: Noam Chompsky warns against Intervention in Libya (before UNSC resolution authorising intervention on 17th March)

      http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/9419967.stm

    48. By Leon Henderson on Aug 6, 2011 | Reply

      Thank God you are not going to vote for the National/Act/Ratbag Party: if they get back into power in November, this (our) once incredibly prosperous nation (for nearly a century we supplied England with food and also ourselves with dirt-cheap food of every kind)is going to be literally condemned to literally being the same as the Phillipines.

    49. By Joe Blow on Aug 6, 2011 | Reply

      @ Leon

      There aren’t many National supporters who’d bother to read this blog site or bother to talk to the likes of you Leon! You shouldn’t judge a person’s political leanings on a few key issues Leon. It would be a sad day for democracy, if we on the Left stopped questioning our own political proponents and just glibely accepted everything they said as fact because we consider ourselves “left”. The Left ain’t no religious cult, Left means thinking for yourself!

      I think I may vote Green again now that they are setting themselves up for bi-partisan policy with the National Party next term. Last election I just wanted to make Labour as big as possible so it got first dibs on putting together a government but there’s not much chance of that happening this election, while the Greens were only going to be effective with Labour in government. Now that the Greens look ready to cross the floor on key issues I think my vote will go back to the Greens. I’m sad to see the likes of Keith Locke go however…

      http://www.nzherald.co.nz/john-armstrong/news/article.cfm?a_id=3&objectid=10742806

    50. By Joe Blow on Aug 6, 2011 | Reply

      @ Leon

      P.S. I like John Armstrong too. He says what he thinks and is equally critical and sometimes supportive of both the left and right parties. A very objective political commentator and New Zealand is lucky to have him. Like you said “…he seems to be able to actually think!!!” for himself…

    51. By Joe Blow on Aug 6, 2011 | Reply

      @ Leon

      Continued Critique of Your Author

      Bosnia

      The Bosnian War was between April 1992 and December 1995. Scott states, “The war in Bosnia was America’s war in every sense of the word. The US administration helped start it, kept it going, and prevented its early end”. However, he gives no evidence that the US supported the Bosniaks through its mujahideen contacts before the outbreak of war. In fact, what happened was that the multiethnic Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina passed a referendum for independence on 29 February 1992. Then, following the declaration of independence, Bosnian Serb forces, supported by the Serbian government of Slobodan Milosevic and the Yugoslav People’s Army (JNA) attacked the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina in order to secure Serbian territory and war soon broke out across Bosnia, accompanied by the ethnic cleansing of the Bosniak population, especially in Eastern Bosnia. THEN “from 1992 to 1995, the Pentagon assisted with the movement of thousands of Mujahideen and other Islamic elements from Central Asia into Europe, to fight alongside Bosnian Muslims against the Serbs.” (Quote from a quotation cited in Scott’s article).

      Kosovo

      I now turn to Kosovo. The Kosovo War was from early 1998 to 1999. In September 1991, the shadow Kosovo Assembly organized a referendum on independence for Kosovo. Despite widespread harassment and violence by Serbian security forces, the referendum achieved a reported 90% turnout among the province’s Albanians, and a 98% vote, which approved the creation of an independent “Republic of Kosovo”. In May 1992, a second referendum elected Rugova as President of Kosovo. The Serbian government declared that both referendums were illegal, and their results null and void. Rugova followed a policy of passive aggression, which kept Kosovo quiet during the much of the 1990s, but eventually the Kosovan Albanian population became increasingly frustrated with Serbian oppression. The KLA first reared its ugly head on April 22, 1996, with four attacks on Serbian security personnel. This initial KLA attack led to a slow slide to outright war from 1996 to 1998 with Serb reprisals and continued KLA attacks. This culminated in the KLA claiming much of the area in and around Decani and control of territory based in the village of Glodane. Therefore, on May 31, 1998, the Yugoslav army and the Serb Ministry of the Interior police began an operation to clear the border of the KLA. However, Scott does not claim that the CIA started developing contacts with the KLA until between 1998 to 1999.

      Conclusion

      How could the United States be said to be directly responsible for either war? You could indirectly blame them for the unforeseen consequences of supporting the mujahideen in Afghanistan, but the US was not directly implicated in starting the Bosnian or Kosovan Wars through its support of Islamist groups in Bosnia and the KLA in Kosovo. Furthermore, not all such collusion has resulted in Islamist reprisals on the US. To the contrary, the support of the KLA has resulted in a relatively peaceful Kosovan democracy and no terrorist attacks on the US at the hands of the KLA as has happened with al-Qaeda.

      Imagine if the US had supported Milosevic instead. I imagine that your author, Scott, would instead be conveniently blaming the US for the monstrous horrors that Milosevic had meted out on the poor innocent Islamist groups that the US should have had the humanitarian sense to support like it had done so with the Afghani Mujahideen… what a bunch of hypocrites the United States government would have been…

    52. By Joe Blow on Aug 6, 2011 | Reply

      Correction: Rugova followed a policy of “passive resistance” not “passive aggression” as written above. Apologies.

    53. By Joe Blow on Aug 6, 2011 | Reply

      @ Leon

      You and Henry Kissinger would get on well in a debate on Bosnia and Kosovo:

      “In several articles of [Henry Kissinger's] and interviews that he gave during the Yugoslav wars, he criticized the United States’ policies in the Balkans, among other things for the recognition of Bosnia and Herzegovina as a sovereign state, which he described as a foolish act. Most importantly he dismissed the notion of Serbs, and Croats for that part, being aggressors or separatist, saying that “they can’t be separating from something that has never existed”.”

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Kissinger#The_Balkans

      “It is worth remembering, however, how much the “realists” had relied upon [Milosevic] until then. Negotiators David Owen, representing the European Union, and former U.S. Secretary of State Cyrus Vance thought he was a necessary “partner for peace.” Henry Kissinger and Lawrence Eagleburger pronounced him to be the man to do business with and steadily opposed any intervention.”

      - Christopher Hitchens

      http://www.slate.com/id/2137950/

      “Henry Kissinger urged a consistent policy of conciliation with the milosevic regime.”

      - The Trails of Henry Kissinger – Christopher Hitchens

    54. By Joe Blow on Aug 7, 2011 | Reply

      @ Leon

      Some truth to Your Author’s article on Kosovo:

      This quote from the London Sunday Times cited by Scott is pretty damning of the US’s encouragement of the KLA in Kosovo:

      “American intelligence agents have admitted they helped to train the Kosovo Liberation Army before Nato’s bombing of Yugoslavia. The disclosure angered some European diplomats, who said this had undermined moves for a political solution to the conflict between Serbs and Albanians. Central Intelligence Agency officers were ceasefire monitors in Kosovo in 1998 and 1999, developing ties with the KLA and giving American military training manuals and field advice on fighting the Yugoslav army and Serbian police.

      “When the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE), which co-ordinated the monitoring, left Kosovo a week before airstrikes began a year ago, many of its satellite telephones and global positioning systems were secretly handed to the KLA, ensuring that guerrilla commanders could stay in touch with Nato and Washington. Several KLA leaders had the mobile phone number of General Wesley Clark, the Nato commander.”

      The ceasefire was brokered by the international community on October 25, 1998 after the international community officially demanded an end to fighting. It specifically demanded that the Serbs end its offensives against the KLA whilst attempting to convince the KLA to drop its bid for independence.

      This means that the US CIA never took the casefire seriously and you can see why this would have angered European diplomats. However, the inadequacy of the Kosovo Verification Mission (KVM), which was a large contingent of unarmed OSCE peace monitors that moved into Kosovo was evident from the start. So maybe the CIA had seen the writing on the wall for the ceasefire agreement from the start and decided to back their government’s preferred victors.

      Still what if the US had done nothing? Milosevic showed how he intended to deal with Kosovo Albanian secession with the Racak Massacre and the KLA Yugoslav Army were already at war by this time. Neither side were serious about laying down their guns and the CIA knew it.

      However, I agree with Your Author, Scott, on this point that the CIA should not have been training the KLA when they were supposed to be monitoring a ceasefire backed by the international community at the time.

      In general, there was way too much spin coming out of Washington on the Kosovo crisis anyway and the decisions being made at this time were definitely influenced by what looked best in the polls for a President facing impeachment.

      However, the background to the Bosnian War is not so simple…

    55. By Leon Henderson on Aug 8, 2011 | Reply

      Joe Blow, what astounds and absolutely horrifies me at the same time is that someone with an IQ of the level that you have obviously got, has to, nevertheless, for some unfathomable reason, try and defend the United States of America at every single turn. Even to the point where you attempt to defend them for throwing the full-force of their massive, hypocritical might, against the tiny, incredibly heroic Serbian soldiers who for months pulverised and routed their Jewish-American/NATO-backed Islamic enemies: Joe Blow, don’t you know that Serbia has only got a tiny population, about exactly the same size as New Zealand. Against the full-might of the United States War Machine/NATO/together with immense hordes of fanatical American-backed Islamic Terrorists and not only all of these Joe Blow, but also a new thing in the outrageously unscrupulous Jewish inventory of murderous jackups upon any country who keeps on refusing to bow down to the World Bank, IMF, and WTO: MERCENARY ARMIES. Yes, Joe Blow, it is in their vicious, mass-murdering of the Christian Serbians in the Balkans where the criminals who rule the United States and it’s immense Empire began to openly deploy huge numbers of mercenaries to murder people for them. A mercenary is in my opinion a form of “life” that should be put into the same category as moneylenders, landlords, syphilis germs, and pimps.

      Do you not think, (and you have the IQ to be able to do it) that this world would be an infinitely better place if these vermin were totally eradicated from it?

    56. By Leon Henderson on Aug 8, 2011 | Reply

      By some incomprehensible neurological contretemps, left a glaring omission in the Vermin List, and to wit: Currency Speculators. Every time New Zealand yet again slides ever-closer to becoming another Phillipines, Haiti, or Mexico, you can thank the lineup on the Vermin List for the economic ruin, and one of their number is actually the Prime Minister of New Zealand!!! God help us when that Ratbag signs the TPP Jackup!!!

    57. By Joe Blow on Aug 8, 2011 | Reply

      @ Leon

      Well it has always amazed me how people as intelligent as Hitler have been able to come to the conclusion that the eradication of an entire ethnic group would make the world a better place. It also amazes me how intelligent people can become apologists for the likes of Milosevic in an effort to blame all of the world’s woes on American Imperialism.

      The world isn’t that simple Leon. Yes, US foreign policy has often caused some terrible consequences for the peoples of other countries, but not everything that has been done by the US and NATO has been for the wrong reasons. It’s not a two dimensional, black and white world Leon, with the US and all they support the baddies on one side, and everyone else, the poor innocent victims of American Imperialism making up the goodies on the other side.

    58. By Joe Blow on Aug 8, 2011 | Reply

      @ Leon

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre#Dispute_regarding_Serb_casualties_around_Srebrenica

    59. By Leon Henderson on Aug 11, 2011 | Reply

      Joe Blow: You Veel Not Call Me Heetla!!!!

    60. By Leon Henderson on Aug 11, 2011 | Reply

      Joe Blow you keep citing Wikipedia as if it was handed down from “on High” by a big hand coming down out of the sky.

      But the actual facts about Wikipedia are infinitely less Reverence-Inducing: for a start, Joe Blow, here is the multibillionaire who owns it: this Filthy-Rich entity has a vast number (of no doubt abominably paid) menials to trawl through all the latest entries/alterations on Wikipedia and these menials are under instructions to remove everything that James Wales does not like. Hence, for example, the unending screeds of anti-Russian propaganda that is everywhere on that website.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Wales

      Would you buy a second-hand car from this person Joe Blow?

      Point Proven, Joe Blow!!!

    61. By Joe Blow on Aug 11, 2011 | Reply

      @ Leon

      You’re funny Leon. You actually just used a wikipedia link to back up your spiel about how untrustworthy it is… but the irony of that will probably be lost on you…

    62. By Joe Blow on Aug 11, 2011 | Reply

      I love wikipedia:)

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia#Editing

    63. By Leon Henderson on Aug 13, 2011 | Reply

      Joe Blow, am extremely surprised at the irrationality of your statement (Quote) “I love wikipedia”.

      It is as irrational as your saying that I was being “contradictory” by using a link to a wikipedia article about the founder/owner of wikipedia.

      That article is authorised by James Wales, and so no bias on my part can be alleged by anyone viz the biographical reference link that was used.

    64. By Joe Blow on Aug 13, 2011 | Reply

      Do you know what a wiki editing model is Leon?

      “No article is owned by its creator or any other editor, or is vetted by any recognized authority; rather, the articles are agreed on by consensus.”

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia#Editing

      Incidentally, Wales isn’t even the chair of the Wikimedia Foundation board anymore and he hasn’t been for some time now.

      I guess you’re claiming that johnpilger.com is more objective because people from any where are NOT allowed to anonymously edit pilger’s articles?

    65. By Joe Blow on Aug 14, 2011 | Reply

      Like I said, “I love Wikipedia”. Check out why:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_in_the_Kosovo_War#Yugoslav_war_crimes

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